Interview: Patrick Grant, Norton & Sons

A perennial topic on this site, and indeed other style fora, is how customers interact with their tailors when they have their first suit made.

The customer thinks he knows what he wants but he can’t quite express it – at least not in the terminology the tailor would use. And the tailor tries to divine the customer’s wishes from every source he has available: what he is already wearing, his facial expressions, his reactions to suggestions and things he tries on.

It’s a difficult process and one that takes time, hence the need for several fittings. Permanent Style spoke to Patrick Grant, owner of Norton & Sons on Savile Row, about this quandary as part of a series of pieces in a new project called Gentleman’s Corner (details to be divulged next week).

Among other things, Patrick agreed that tailors often resort to using house styles or fit generalisations (classic, slim, skinny) because of this very inability to communicate.

Permanent Style: What proportion of customers know enough about what they want when they walk in and answer all your questions?

Patrick Grant: Not many, is the honest answer. A lot of people have a good idea of how they would like to look. And a lot of them know that they like what they end up wearing, but that’s about it.

They know when the results are good. They can feel the difference from what they had before – but they won’t be able to say that the difference is because there is an inch more suppression in the waist, or the jacket is a touch longer. They know where they want to get to, but they can’t necessarily articulate how to get there.

PS: Is that first conversation difficult then?

PG: When you go into the fitting room, David [Ward, head cutter] will measure you up and have this conversation with you. It starts off a little bit broadly: ‘How would you liked this coat to be cut? Shaped, in a classic English style?’ And the customer will reply: ‘Well yes, quite shaped. But not too shaped.’

PS: So no answer at all then.

PG: Sure, but then it gets more focused, and the customer will say he doesn’t want it very fitted, really skinny. He’ll express one preference and then another, and we ease towards a vision.

Some people are also very happy to say ‘you’re the experts, you cut me a suit that is going to make me look as good as I can’. But it’s a process that takes a lot of time. On the first suit this conversation is repeated in three, sometimes four fittings. And the conversation becomes a little easier when there’s a coat to talk about and point to.

The first meeting is a little vague, but actually nine times out of ten we get it pretty right.

PS: Is it fair to say that one reason some tailors have a house style is that the customer knows what he is getting and has probably come there for that reason – saving everyone the first, vague conversation?

PG: Yes, I think that’s quite right. If you left the shape entirely up to us, you would get a suit that looks like the one on the mannequin in the shop window. That’s why the models are there, so the customer can say ‘that’s what Norton & Sons looks like, that’s what Henry Poole looks like, that’s what Huntsman looks like and this is the one I want to look like.’

PS: Do people come in and just browse sometimes? On this site we have discussed how much men would like to do that more at tailors.

PG: Absolutely, we have people come in and try suits on and have a conversation about the style, just to get an idea. It’s quite normal for people to try three or four tailors before they order.

In fact, we picked up a new customer a few weeks ago that had a suit made at ourselves and two other tailors on the Row, to see which he liked best. I won’t say who the other two were, but he had exactly the same suit, same colour same cloth, just so he could decide which he liked best.

PS: That sounds pretty meticulous. He sounds like he’s going to be a serious customer.

PG: He said he just wanted to find the best tailor for him and be able to make a real comparison.

PS: That’s what makes it hard for many newcomers to this area to get an idea of what they want – not many people, no journalist and no one on the various style sites has tried all the tailors.

PG: That’s fair. And the main reason people switch between tailors, as we’ve seen since I took over, is not an objective comparison like this customer made but just a simple feeling. They’ve been with someone for years and have a good relationship with them, but suddenly something’s just a little wrong. It’s changed and it’s not like it used to be.

Cultural Differences: Black Tie At Weddings

Considering the violent and convincing manner in which the redcoat troops were defeated in the last quarter of the 18th century, with the assistance of French gold and weaponry, the very existence of what is famously termed the ‘special relationship’ seems inconceivable but the similarities between the peoples either side of the Atlantic Ocean are well noted and undeniable. Indeed it could be argued that Britain has now maintained a friendly and understanding relationship with America longer than she has with any other nation. However, the grandiloquent pretences of the 19th century – the dream of America and the Imperial mother nation uniting together in mighty union - have, perhaps fortunately, vanished.

The Old World has been in decline since the ‘disagreements’ of 1781, the New has risen steadily to outmuscle, outshine and outdo the parent but, like all offspring, has slowly developed an appreciation for the Old. In art, architecture, fashion and music there have certainly been examples of American uniqueness; innovations of the continent itself. However, there has been, and still is, a connection and a reverence for the European way of doing things. This is by no means an embarrassment for Americans, nor is it overstatement of the greatness that lingers from a bygone age. Between two continents we have forged what has become to be known by all as ‘The Western World.’

However, there are some peculiar aspects and traditions of modern America perplexing to me. The most popular sports are played little elsewhere in the world; there is a strange arrangement in calendars of months, days and then years and of course, there is a tradition to wear ‘a tux’ at one’s wedding - no matter that it may be a morning ceremony followed by a lunchtime reception. Some American readers may think it terribly old fashioned, and Old World, to question a tradition that most Americans have known for at least a generation. However, it has always seemed to me rather strange when looking at American wedding photos – the bride and groom, extremely neat in appearance; well groomed, coiffed and with gleaming smiles but in contradicting attire.

The bride is invariably wearing what some refer to as the ‘meringue’ – a mound of creamy white that corresponds to the ‘fairytale’ of the wedding ceremony. It is essentially a period design, although what period it directly represents isn’t always clear. The gentleman stands next to his bride in a severe black tuxedo, usually with satin-faced lapels, and wears the white shirt with, typically, a black clip on bow tie. It is usually a case of ‘day meets night’ – it would be correct to wear black tie (or, as it is a formal occasion ‘white tie’) in the evening, after six o’ clock, but usually, the same dress is adopted for morning and afternoon wear. In the shining sun, the ‘tuxedo’ looks odd to this traditionalist European. Commanding and appropriately attired he might be to American eyes; to me he looks more like a Parisian waiter who has lost his tray. It might be that Americans don’t understand the rule of when to wear evening dress, do not care to follow such a rule or even that they are unaware of it being ‘evening dress.’ Someone I know recently wore morning dress to a wedding in the States to be complimented by a local with the words; ‘Nice tux!’ As the ensemble is known simply by this and not the more clear cut ‘evening dress’ or ‘dinner suit’, this may explain why it has somehow become the norm to wear it to one’s wedding.

The other explanation is that Americans adopted black tie at weddings as it was the only formal dress they possessed in their wardrobes. Instead of garbing themselves in something they were unlikely to wear again, they revolutionised the formal attire of weddings and adopted their ‘smart evening clothes’ instead. This is a rather charming explanation but is rather strange coming from a nation that produces television programmes that lecture women on the appropriateness of their clothing choices. “This one” shrills the self-assured host “is much maw an eevnin’ dress hunny. It’s black, that should give you your first clue!”

Why Your Gucci Doesn’t Fit

Ever wondered why your Dolce & Gabbana jacket fits you so well but the Gucci just isn’t right? Well, it’s Antonio Bracciani’s fault.

Bracciani is not a designer, a marketer or a manager. He is a fit model. And most of the clothes in the retail collections of Gucci, Prada, Burberry, Z Zegna and Calvin Klein Collection have been made to fit his body. Not yours, not mine, but his.

So if you happen to be 72″ tall with a 33″ waist, have a 39″ chest and 38″ hips, and exactly 18.5″ shoulders with a 15.7″ collar, everything will fit you. (184cm tall with an 84cm waist, 100cm chest and 98cm hips, 47cm shoulders and a 40cm collar.) Otherwise it will always be a little bit off.

These proportions are scaled up to the various chest and waist sizes used to classify jackets and trousers. So the precise measurements are less important than the ratios – if you are that little bit bigger than Antonio in every area, the suit might still fit you perfectly.

Antonio has kept the same figure he had when he was 18, through a steady diet and exercise regime. He spends most of his working days standing very still, having clothes fitted on him for hours on end. A slightly unusual occupation, but one that leaves plenty of time for planning his future – setting up an agency for fit models and other unsung jobs in the industry, like pattern cutters. Because you’re not going to stay the same size forever. (Although Armani’s current fit model is 55-years old – Antonio is only 32.)

Antonio is interviewed in the Spring/Summer 2009 edition of Fantastic Man, which has the best quality of writing of any of the men’s quarterly/bi-annual titles. Unfortunately, little of it is about style, but at least the journalism is good. And the piece in question was by Charlie Porter, probably the most consistently worth reading of British style writers.

The Seasonals section at the back of the magazine, however, deserves mention for other reasons. It is normally an insightful look at the various clothes and accessories that could make up an outfit for the season. This time the model wears tight, mid-thigh denim shorts, with a skin-coloured vest tucked in. Over the top is a cream sweater with a slashed neck and hemline that stops way short of the belly button. Finish it off with a white, shapeless Mac. Apparently.

The Old School Tie

I remember my school days fondly. They were glowing, comforting halcyon days; the echo of laughter along the parquet corridors, the buzz of excitement at the end of term, the sun drenched summer days on the playing fields and the cool, dewy November fire drill mornings. Memory, however, is undoubtedly selective. Less clear are the hazy memories of romantic disappointments, feelings of insecurity and unpopularity, moments of alienation and punishment – the solitary hours of reflection and idleness.

The other fantasies of such nostalgic hypocrisy were the turgid beliefs of self-assurance, creativity and individuality; in particular, in the matter of uniform, my popular illusion that I was more artistically responsible, more aesthetic, in my manner of wear than all my classmates. A little browsing of photograph albums corrects these laughable assertions. The most that can be said for me, an awkward and rather gaunt teenager, was that I wore clean shirts and could tie a tie.

This last triumph of mine, my now ubiquitous four-in-hand, may well be something of a collector’s item in years to come. Clip-on ties, absolutely appalling mock ups of a made tie, are gradually replacing hand-knotted ties in UK schools. The Schoolwear Association claimed that 10 schools a week are switching from hand tied ties to clip-ons because of “fears of ties getting caught in equipment or strangling pupils.”

I’m not quite sure what has changed in schools, but its clear the days of the five minute education on tucking ties into shirts when working in the science and technology labs, are over. I never experienced an attempted ‘strangulation’ with one of our regulation ties, and I am glad for it, but I do think that worrying about such a sad fatality says more about the loss of control over school children than the supposed health and safety risks of a tie one ties oneself.

The other more intriguing, certainly more convincing reason cited is that a ready made tie, mocked up in a very conventional way, will prevent pupils from customising the size of the knots in their ties. For years now, rebellion in schools has taken many forms; swearing, chewing gum in class, teacher abuse, hair that defies regulation and, particularly, uniform alteration.

When I first attended school I was shown a picture – then about 10 years old – of some pupils at my school in the uniform I was to buy. “This is how” the school outfitter muttered “your school wishes you to dress.” I was never a rebellious type and looking at the photo, rather disinterestedly, I acquiesced with a blink and a blank expression. There must have been those, however, who on seeing the well-cut suit, tightly tied tie and clean white shirts ignited what I refer to as ‘graffiti thoughts’; the willingness to rebel, no matter that such rebellion makes worse what was first there.

The strange thing about this plan of action is that the Schoolwear Association sees no issue of rebellion in the issuing of a tie meant to counteract the very thing that pupils collectively cherish; creativity. As far as aesthetics go, the awfulness of the fat knot and short tail is without question but at least, in manufacturing such stylistic rebellion, the pupil is able to tie a tie.

Although school uniform is a great social leveller, the hypocrisy of a clip-on tie is the schools attempt to keep pupils on an equal footing by collectively removing from them the opportunity to wear a proper tie; how could they ever feel they belong in the darkest corridor, or on the coldest, frostiest winter run if the school deems they don’t even belong in a tie? For a clip-on tie, is not a tie; it is an oxymoron. The world of clip-on takes education and development away from the child. It places before the child arguments for soulless homogeny, a denial of an opportunity for expression. By all means, discourage the child from the fat knots and short tails worn by the protagonists of the teen dramas, but educate in doing so.

Looking smart can, and should, be in the interests of all. The resources are there for everyone to wear clean, well-fitting clothing to school – the real failure is not the necktie but the hold that we have lost over the younger generation; to clip on a tie is to throw in the towel.

A Code of Style: The Gentleman’s Movement

We hear it over and over, from our friends to the magazines to the message boards. Men want to step up their game, cast off the teenage garments that have taken many of them far into their 40s, allow the marketers and the designers to steer them towards the classicist world of traditional gentleman’s raiment, and emerge as the best dressed that they can be.

Year in, year out over the falling years of this early 21st century decade, the messages in the best dressed lists and the interweb lionising of renaissance men from 50 years or more prior all lead to one conclusion - the suit and tie separates the men from the boys and its benefits are so enriching as to leave no faults corrected. Put simply, dapper is king.

But is the movement actually taking flight? The touchstones of the well dressed seem to have remained stable (if not wholly inspiring) over this decade - actors and fictional characters, television presenters and awards ceremonies, the odd singer and whimsical music videos - but it strangely seems that so little seem to have gotten the message, and the old reticence of looking overdressed remains.

In my experience, nowhere else is the idea that elegance in dress is constrictive more exemplified than at the events at which dressing up used to be most mandatory - evenings out at operas, ballet, theatre and fine restaurants. And further disbelief results from it taking place in Britain, because it means the effects of America’s stripped down, jeans-and-t-shirt/shorts-and-flip-flops approach to event dressing has become a more pervasive influence than before. From nowhere else in the world do I hear so many anecdotes of grown men mocking pocket squares to the extent of snatching them out of another’s breast pocket, nor tales of young partygoers being hassled by aggressive attendees for “dressing up” in a shirt and chinos, or even clubbers in New York being asked if they were “Gay or European?” due to the relative “outlandishness” of their attire (again, a simple shirt and trousers combination).

On the other hand, America knows how to celebrate its style heroes as positive influences. The term, “The Gentleman’s Movement”, is most associated with Derek Watkins, better known as Fonzworth Bentley, entertainer and former valet to Sean ‘Diddy’ Combs. His dedication to improving style may be sensationalistic and shallow to some, but to my eyes, he is committed and sincere. He rarely is seen in t-shirts but for promotional appearances, he spent time during club appearances giving “gentleman’s makeovers” to the low-slung jeans set and his reality show, ‘From G’s to Gents’, revealed a man who put on no truly pretentious airs (his televisual persona was straightforward, steely and free of flowery prose), emphasised fair play, respect and correctness, and was always interestingly turned out with a key trait that is paramount for a good dresser in these times - a lack of self consciousness. While his efforts, and those of his friend Andre Benjamin, did not cause a paradigm shift in the attire of their fanbases, those amongst their peer group and their followers who were receptive followed suit, so to speak. Not for nothing have they become darlings, and sometimes pariahs, of the online style sets.

Indeed, a consistently well-dressed man can become an icon of male style, as the increased interest in the wardrobes - and related minutiae - of departed legends such as Fred Astaire, Gianni Agnelli and the Duke of Windsor proves, along with the more than passing approval of present-day men of refinement such as Prince Charles, Gay Talese, Willie Brown and Beppe Modenese. And each of these men would utilise their sense of style in practically every area of their wardrobe. The remit of this site alone is to foster the development and expression of personal style, and I think that this should be just as apparent “off-duty” as “on”.

I’m not so churlish as to think that casual items such as jeans, sweaters and comfortable footwear have no place in a gentleman’s wardrobe. But I feel that some will rather wear less conspicuous items outside of their well-made working wardrobes so that they can avoid the stigma of being “the dressed-up guy” or even a “dandy” (in the context of “fop” as interchangeable with “dandy”) amongst social circles. I have always believed, as does Bentley apparently, that being well turned out is all encompassing, and that even the most casual outfit for a night on the town should have some flair.

My experiences are personal and subjective, but appreciation can be shown for the smallest of efforts such as a flower in the buttonhole, a well cut jacket, a good watch or elegant footwear. The pocket square might be frowned upon or even mocked overenthusiastically by other men at an event, but the response from women may often be far more positive and encouraging. And the use of aristocrats, gentlemen and dandies as cornerstones in many an au-courant fashion designer’s collections proves that the great traditions of menswear are not going away. If their presentations are stories, then the morals all conclude that being a gentleman in all situations and climates is a bedrock of fashion and style. Not always is the person who differs from the crowd, who places an emphasis on dressing best to dance, to drink and to decompress on a friend’s sofa, the object of criticism and disdain. On occasion, his attire will open up conversations and doors, for on the surface he might be the most interesting person in the room.

Being well dressed outside the office doesn’t mean costumes or caricature or foppery, just an expression of how much you enjoy adapting your style to suit your environment. Just because you’ve left work for the day, does not mean your style should too.

This is guest post by Barima Owusu-Nyantekyi, a freelance copywriter, marketer and researcher living in London. He is also an observer of popular culture, popular music and personal style who always dresses for dancing. His musings may be found at Style Time (barimavox.blogspot.com)